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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2011 > Jun > Jun 15

Re: Third Kingdom Experiences

From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:30:55 +0100
Archived: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 05:51:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <post.nul>
>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:31:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences

>>From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
>>To: UFO UpDates <post.nul>
>>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:27:07 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>To: <post.nul>
>>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:59:20 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences

>>>>From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates <post.nul>
>>>>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:14:05 +0100
>>>>Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences

>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>>To: <post.nul>
>>>>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:12:36 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: Alien Museum On Alien Abduction Case

>>>>They exist
>>>>- often >vividly - in experience, and experience alone.

<snip>

>>>Incidentally, I wish to stress that "experience anomaly" is a
>>>concept, a description of a certain class of hard-to-grasp
>>>phenomenal encounter, _not_ an explanation of such.

<snip>

>>Sorry Jerry but I still don't think you've answered my query
>>about your statement "They exist - often vividly - in
>>experience, and experience alone."

>>I was asking you whether you accept any of these experiences are
>>NOT experiences alone - but can occasionally can be objective,
>>physical happenings. A yes or no please.

>Sorry, Dave, but no simple yes or no is to be had. Anybody
>looking for a simple one or the other has missed the entire
>point of experience anomalies, which confusingly commingle the
>objective and the subjective. The problem from our end is that
>we demand they be one or the other, when they're both. Or
>neither.

>I repeat what I said earlier: "experience anomalies" is a
>description, a category, a way of thinking about some problems
>in anomalies studies; it is _not_ an explanation.

>If you're looking for "objective, physical happenings," I refer
>you to what I call anomalous events, which I carefully delineate
>from experience anomalies. I encourage you to read my essay
>"Experience Anomalies" in Fortean Times 243 (2008): 42-27. There
>I remark of the intellectual quandary that drove me to the
>conclusion:

>"The concept of experience anomalies relieves us of the false
>demands of literalism. We no longer have to argue for the
>authenticity or inauthenticity of the described phenomena. Not
>that a profound enigma does not remain - a mystery of
>imagination, culture, perception, consciousness, being, and more
>- a mystery so impenetrable that it eludes vocabulary itself,
>our very sense of the assumed relationship of event to
>experience. Happily, though, it removes from us the most onerous
>burden of all. We can now believe our informants without having
>to believe their explanations."


OK Jerry I will do my damndest to read your stuff and get my
head around what you mean.

But in the meantime I would still like to know whether you would
place my three examples - assuming for this argument that they
are not hoaxed - the Skinwalker displaced bulls, the brass leaf
case of Braude and the Scole apports - into your Anomalous
Events category?

I must say on first reading it seems to me that describing
something as "a mystery of imagination, culture, perception,
consciousness, being, and more - a mystery so impenetrable that
it eludes vocabulary itself" sounds very much like those
religious folk who when asked for explanations say 'It can't be
fathomed. God's ways are are not our ways.'

But maybe what you're saying is rather like the quantum dilemma
I read about when they say that that light and matter can behave
as both particle and wave.

I will persevere to understand - unless my brain explodes first!


Dave Haith



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