From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:27:07 +0100 Archived: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <post.nul> >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:59:20 -0500 >Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences >>From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <post.nul> >>Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:14:05 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Third Kingdom Experiences >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <post.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:12:36 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Alien Museum On Alien Abduction Case >>They exist >>- often >vividly - in experience, and experience alone. >>Jerry, it's your last sentence here I'd like to comment on: >>"They exist - often vividly - in experience, and experience >>alone." >>But my point in discussing The Gold Leaf Lady and Skinwalker and >>if you like acres of parapsychological literature, is that just >>sometimes these things exist in experience but also NOT in >>experience alone. >>There are such things as 'apports' - solid objects which >>seemingly 'arrive' from elsewhere as in the brass in Braude's >>case, the prize bulls which were moved from a field to >>a container in the Skinwalker case and umpteen coins, >>jewellery and photographs in the Scole case. >>How do we fit these permanent incursions into our solid physical >>world into your Third Kingdom concept except by surmising that >>there is a multi-dimensional universe where there can >>occasionally be 'bleed throughs' from other worlds to ours? >>Or do I suspect that you dismiss entirely the claimed phenomena >>mentioned above? >These are excellent questions, Dave. Let me see if I can respond >in a way that makes sense to anybody besides me. >My interest in experience anomalies is focused on spontaneous >cases. The ideas began to form as I immersed myself in folkloric >texts about fairy traditions and, especially, the firsthand >encounters that inevitably figure in them. (Folklorists call the >latter "memorates," by the way.) Jacques Vallee raised this >issue in his important 1969 book Passport to Magonia, but I had >never been satisfied with his treatment, which struck me as not >fully formed. Nor, in my judgment, had self-proclaimed skeptics >used folkloric materials meaningfully; theirs was a rhetorical >strategy only, in which if you could mention fairies and UFOs in >the same sentence you could magically render the latter as >ostensibly absurd as the former. >Actually, folklorists are often puzzled by firsthand testimony >to supernatural occurrences. Some ignore the problem by making >no comment on it at all in print, just reproducing the accounts >as examples of the sorts of things some people believe to be >true. Some others concoct far-fetched reductionist explanations >(my favorite: encounters with malformed humans). Others admit >they have no explanation and resist speculation. A very few, >Evans-Wentz most famously, theorize about parallel worlds. Just >about everybody agrees, however, that experiences of perceived >fairies do happen. I've spoken with people who've had them, most >recently just a month ago. >One thing people don't talk about is hoax and fraud as sweeping >explanations. Overwhelmingly, the informants are manifestly >sincere, if na=EFve. (The notorious Cottingley fairy photographs >are, of course, another matter.) If one acknowledges as much, >how does one deal with such testimony without having to believe >in the literal existence of fairies? Which, to be sure I'm not >misunderstood, I don't. Thus, experience anomalies. >I have deliberately stayed away from thorny questions of spirit >mediumship, especially physical mediumship (which of course is >where apports come in), because it is riddled with fraud and >allegations, founded or unfounded, of same. Simply from having >worked at Fate all those years, I know more about the history of >psychical research than most people - enough to know I cannot >begin to claim expertise (or, I confess, much interest). I do >feel comfortable in the Fortean realm, of which I can boast a >reasonable knowledge base. The questions, in short, are already >complicated enough without having to deal with charges of human >misbehavior. >Incidentally, I wish to stress that "experience anomaly" is a >concept, a description of a certain class of hard-to-grasp >phenomenal encounter, _not_ an explanation of such. <snip> Sorry Jerry but I still don't think you've answered my query about your statement "They exist - often vividly - in experience, and experience alone." I was asking you whether you accept any of these experiences are NOT experiences alone - but can occasionally can be objective, physical happenings. A yes or no please. Just one white blackbird is enough to establish that all blackbirds are not black. But you seem to be dismissing my psychic examples - apports and the like - because you seem to have made up your mind that we can lay this all at the door of fraud. So in the annuls of physical mediumship in your view there is not a single example of an apport? You don't comment on my Skinwalker, Stephan Braude or Scole examples so I don't know whether you put these in the fraud category... I would like to know. In your 'fairy' statements you do point out that despite the conjectures of Evans-Wentz about parallel worlds - you don't believe in the literal existence of fairies. So have I got this correct - you can accept some of these things as 'experience anomalies' but you have no possible place in your belief system that any of these things could be 'solid' and 'real'? If Evan-Wentz's theories finally turn out to be fact, if something emerged from a parallel universe as solid and material and then perhaps vanished back into its own universe, leaving not a trace...... would that be classed in your book as a 'real' nuts and bolts type happening - albeit temporary - or an 'experience anomaly'? Is there space in your belief system of 'experience anomalies' of the kind we hear from Graham Hancock who has long forsaken Fingerprints of the Gods and now believes that his many trips using ayahuasca (the vine of souls) are literally real journeys through interdimensional portals? See Graham Hancock: Elves, Aliens, Angels and Ayahuasca: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0qgMFO0KU-I Graham seriously believes he's encountered grey aliens via this route but he argues that these experiences exist literally in another dimension and not simply in his head or psyche? Call me sponge-headed if you like but - because of my own personal experiences and research - I am open to concepts that consciousness can create - sometimes even physically - and that can result in the weirdest of manifestations we call 'high strangeness'. Dave Haith Listen to 'Strange Days... Indeed' - The PodCast At: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/ These contents above are copyright of the author and UFO UpDates - Toronto. They may not be reproduced without the express permission of both parties and are intended for educational use only.
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