From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:12:13 -0000
Archived: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:03:00 -0400
Subject: It's Just Not Science


From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
To: UFO UpDates <post.nul>
Date: Weds, 28 Oct 2009
Subject: It's Just Not Science

>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul>
>To: post.nul
>Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:23:02 EDT
>Subject: Re: It's Just Not Science

>>From: Jason Gamnmon <BoyintheMachine.nul>
>>To: post.nul
>>Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:57:47 EDT
>>Subject: Re: It's Just Not Science

>>>From: Dave Haith <visions1.nul>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <post.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:54:15 -0000
>>>Subject: It's Just Not Science [was: Abduction Debunking Has Begun]

>>>>From: Jason Gammon <boyinthemachine.nul>
>>>>To: post.nul
>>>>Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:50:09 -0400
>>>>Subject: Re: Abduction Debunking Has Already Begun

>>>>You've lost sight of the goal along the way.

>>>>Get rid of Science and embrace Demonology!

>>>>Right, Alfred? Demons did it!

>>>Jason,

>>>I understand your reasoning in clinging to the Great God Science
>>>to make sense of our confusing world. After all it seems to be
>>>the only thing we have - apart from the Demonology you mock....

>>>I too admire science - as far as it goes...

>>>But of course it doesn't go very far.

><snip>

>>>And all this crazy stuff is "not science as we know it Jim" but
>>>as sure as eggs are eggs, it'll be science as we WILL know it
>>>one distant day.

>>>Dave Haith

>>You have completely misunderstood my stance.

>>"UFOs as Subconscious Projections" is not Science and never will
>>be. Such a stance is on par with claims that UFOs/Aliens are
>>Demons attempting to trick believers away from our Lord, Jesus
>>Christ.

<snip>

>>If we are not talking about a "real" phenomena in the sense of
>>our normal understanding of "real", then the subject is not
>>worth researching or discussing.

>>To conclude that UFOs are Subconscious Projections, or even the
>>work of fairies or witches is to accept a claim without any
>>proof or evidence. Strike that, it's actually worse as it
>>includes the ignoring of the physical data implying the
>>phenomena is grounded in reality, such as radar confirmations.

>>I don't care who the person is, be they a big name in the field
>>or not. If one is pushing for a magical explanation for the UFO
>>phenomena then we should treat such people as "biblical lepers".

>>Such individuals have wandered off the path of Science and are
>>hopelessly lost in fantasy land.

>>-Jason

>This type of theory has been floating around whenever anything
>new comes into our existence and threatens the status quo.

>Delusions don't leave trace cases and don't show up on radar.

>If they do then we need to rethink our own reality and our
>participation in it.

Greg

Apparently mathematicians in the name of something called
"conscious realism" are doing just what you suggest and
rethinking our reality.

I am informed by friends who better understand these things
that:

Conscious realism requires that we adopt the notion that
consciousness- rather than matter - is fundamental. It
acknowledges an objective reality but quickly cautions that
conscious beings (such as humans) do not have direct access to
objective reality.

Instead, we have access to a symbolic iconography which we
believe to be reality.

Since we don't have direct access to objective reality,
everything we know is based on our subjective experience: our
observations of that iconographic symbolism. This of course
includes our sciences and "physical laws". So we are constrained
by our observational abilities. Anomalous phenomena, far from
something to dismiss, is in reality an indicator that our
synthesis of reliable observations, what some like to call
'science', is incomplete. Instead of refuting such anomalies, it
is the job of science to explain them.

Furthermore conscious realism states that this perceptual
iconography is created by networks of conscious agents, some of
whom, like humans, are likely hierarchical in nature. It is the
consensus of these conscious agents which creates the
iconography we all recognize. And while all humans are conscious
agents, conscious realists suggest that not all conscious agents
are human. Indeed some may be of forms either never or rarely
encountered by humans directly. This opens the interesting door
for experiences with the deceased, aliens and various other
interesting things.

Search for "Observer Mechanics" and "Conscious Realism" on the
Web.

One direct link to papers written by the original authors of the
mathematical theory is:

http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ompref.html

at Univ. of California, Irvine.

A more readable paper on Conscious Realism:

http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ConsciousRealism2.pdf

also at UCI.




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At:

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Your access info works there too...

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