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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2008 > May > May 10

Re: Shostaks's 'Phoenix Lights' With Rebuttals

From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:59:52 -0300
Archived: Sat, 10 May 2008 14:27:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Shostaks's 'Phoenix Lights' With Rebuttals

>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 07:08:09 -0700
>Subject: Re: Shostaks's 'Phoenix Lights' With Rebuttals

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:54:37 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Shostaks's 'Phoenix Lights' With Rebuttals


>>The flares burn with an output rated at up to 2 million
>>candlepower. Can be seen at night for many tens of miles.

>>The images in the 10:00pm videos do not show any smoke trails,
>>but one wouldn't expect to see the light reflected from smoke
>>from a great distance.

>>Instead, the image of the bright flare would create an image that
>>essentially 'covers-up' any light from the smoke. (The image
>>actually recorded by the camera is many times larger than the
>>image would be if the camera optics were 'perfect'.

>>Note that the image of a distant very bright light is much larger
>>than the image of an equally distant' dim light. The image size
>>increases with brightness.)

>>The videos by Krzysten ("Krzysten arc") and C. Rairdon are
>>particularly valuable for analysis because the lights are seen
>>long enough to be able to prove that they drop downward and to
>>the left, consistent with falling flares in an airmass that was
>>moving west to east (right to left in the videos looking

>Bruce, Don, Brad, et al,

>To clarify my previous comments - in response to Brad re the 75
>mile distance and playing devil's advocate: The further away
>the drop takes place, smoke and/or 'chutes are less likely to be
>visible, as Bruce emphasizes above.

>Important to remember (like Stephenville) the powers-that-be
>initially denied dropping flares only to later reverse

Hi Frank, Bruce,

If memory serves it was nearly a couple of weeks [10 days?]
before the AF copped to the training exercise. Also to clarify,
I used the tower at Sky Harbour International AP as a measuring
point to get distances from there to the restricted Military
Operations Area. But Sky Harbour tower is about 11 miles south
and slightly east of the city's center. That brings the 75 miles
into play once more making the distance to the edge of to the
closest SELLS MOA 65 miles.

The personnel at that tower - field elevation 1,135 feet with
the tower probably 100 feet higher than that - would have had
their view of the AF flares blocked by South Mountain at a
minimum of 2050 feet elevation with a tower sticking up a
maximum of 1000 feet. Beyond that is the south end of the Sierra
Estrella range at around 4,400 feet. Therefore the flares would
have had to have been ignited at considerable elevation for them
to be seen by the tower personnel.

I'm sure the Air Force could do the simple math and determine
that to get a plausible decoy off the ground that they would
have to ignite a pattern or flares at sufficient altitude to
give a clear view to the already shaken witnesses back in

The airfield that I fly out of was used in 1988 for an army war
game. The idea was to capture the field. The only aircraft
involved were a couple of P-3 Orions, called Auroras in Canada,
which dropped flares over the field and the barrens to the east.

That was the second time I had seen the LUU1 and 2 flares in

The idea was the offensive team of a couple hundred soldiers
were to advance on the field while the other teamm defended it.
The defenders used the flares as a ploy to make the offence team
think that that was how the defensive team had found their heavy
artillary implacements.

In fact 4 of the defence spotters used their heads and asked us
to fly them around the area in our high winged aircraft and they
spotted all of the gun emplacements and staging areas. We were
impressed civilian assets it seems. The offensive team were used
to our flying around and thought nothing of it.

My spotter tossed his cookies in his beret then went right back
at it. I had a perfectly good barf bag in the airplane. Time was
a factor I guess.

Anyway the smoke trails were clearly evident while the flares
dropped however, during an exercise over the Atlantic some years
later, the flares dropped about 10 miles away were, as suggested
by Bruce, over-masking blobs of light with no evident smoke
trails. The flares themselves hid these or more likely the eye
was overwhelmed by the pinpoint of brilliant light; like trying
to see the car behind the headlights when they are shining right
in your eyes.

Don Ledger

Listen to 'Strange Days... Indeed' - The PodCast



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