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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2004 > Feb > Feb 2

Re: Whittlesea Australia UFO Photograph - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:26:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:56:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Whittlesea Australia UFO Photograph - Hatch

> From: Dan Bright <ufo.nul>
> To: ufoupdates.nul
> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:39:33 -0000
> Subject: Re: Whittlesea Australia UFO Photograph

>>From: Amy Hebert <vanguard.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 07:46:47 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Whittlesea Australia UFO Photograph

>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul>
>>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:56:12 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Whittlesea Australia UFO Photograph

>>You claim the light is coming from above, to the right and
>>slightly in *front* of all the objects in the photo. You also
>>claim the sun would have been over and slightly *behind* the
>>photographer's right shoulder. If this is true, where is the
>>photographer's shadow?

>Hi Amy, John, listers:

>The azimuth of the sun at 14:52pm, for Whittlesea Australia
>(Lat: 37=B0 31' South, Long: 145=B0, 07' East), on January 15 2004
>would have been 29.9=B0. The Altitude would have been 71.5=B0:


>The railway line that is present in the image probably runs
>South to North (Melbourne to Epping). The sun would be to the
>West (North would be to the right of the image). This
>corresponds with the shadows that are visible te ground.

>The precise pattern and intensity of reflection and shadow on
>the object would surely depend upon it's precise shape,
>dimensions, attitude, altitude, surface material, atmospheric
>haze, so on and so forth, which of course we don't know.

>For what it's worth, I've also done a few test renders of a
>domed disk in various positions (with the sun set as stated


Hello Dan, Amy, John:

The orientation of the camera seems paramount. What precise
direction was the camera facing when the shot was taken?

Nothing I found in the Australian news seems to indicate this!
 What I see is a railway that could run in practically any
direction, perhaps diagonally to the major compass points as
rails take any wide turn necessary to avoid steep grades. What I
think I see is a rise or ridge on the far horizon, topped with
trees in sharp focus.  I would expect a flying saucer to also be
in sharp focus unless moving at high speeds.

The tracks run parallel to this horizon "ridge" as I would
expect, again to avoid fuel wasting grades.

Some dedicated rail fan compiled rail maps of Victoria State:


If you click on the "South" sector of that map you see this one:
(Melbourne itself is a black box because its just too covered
with rails)


The yellow line running north from the Melbourne denied area
ends at Whittlesea!  On a separate (red) line just to the West,
I find Beveridge. Beveridge and Whittlesea are connected by road
but not by rail directly.

Since the highway crossing is identified as Beveridge Road, I
presume that road runs roughly East-West, and that the
photographer had to be facing either East or West (plus/minus so
many degrees of course.)

As this is/was Summer time in Australia, I would expect the Sun
to be high in the Northern skies at Noon, and well off to the
West of that by 14:52 hours (nearly 3:00 PM).

I calculated something like a 300 degree Azimuth, and ran the US
Navy site algorithm to get a more accurate 290 degrees. This
places the sun in the Western skies, as one might expect unless
the Earth reversed its spin.  Any chance there was an error in
the numbers above?  The Navy site also gave an elevation of
about 55 degrees above the horizon.

I used Form B on this web page:


There is a nice explanation of Azimuth and Elevation directly
below that.  Victoria State is 10 hours ahead or "East" of
Greenwich if anyone wants to double-check the figures.

The table produced is in even 10-minute increments, thus the
approximate figures for 14:52 hours local time.

With the Sun to the WNW (Azm. =3D290 dgrs) and presuming the
railway runs generally North-South as shown on the map, the
photographer would have to be facing more or less either East or

If he was facing East, the Sun's reflection coming from his
right would place the Sun somewhere in the Southern skies!  I
really doubt that.

If he was facing West, the Sun should have been pretty much in
front of him, perhaps showing in the photo itself.

I'm at a loss here. Can somebody in the Melbourne area get a few
important data points for us?

1) Where precisely is the location of this railway crossing?

2) Do the tracks run N-S as the map seems to indicate?

3) Which way does Beveridge Road run? E-W as I
might presume?

3) Which way was the photographer facing?

This isn't rocket science. Just take a spin out to that same
railway crossing, bring a camera, shoot the same scene at the
same time of day. It should be easily and positively identified
by the crossing signs, landscape etc.

Tell us which way you are facing when you take the same photo,
and don't rely on a magnetic compass or "dead reckoning", both
notoriously inaccurate. Bring a good local map, and of course
the original news photo for orientation.

If you do this right away (Don't wait until March), the Sun's
position should roughly the same. Please indicate that as well.

Maybe we can lay this matter to rest.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

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