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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2002 > Nov > Nov 30

Re: Magonia Supplement 43

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:45:12 -0400
Archived: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:52:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement 43

>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:10:26 +0000
>Subject: Magonia Supplement 43

>Magonia Supplement 43 is now available on the Magonia website.
>Here is John Harney's Editorial:


>Issue No. 41 of this publication was devoted to discussing the
>ETH and the lack of evidence to support it. This provoked the
>usual knee-jerk reactions from members of the UFO UpDates
>mailing list, including some who had obviously not even bothered
>to read it before mailing their comments.

>One of the points I made, and not for the first time, was about
>the impossibility of the evidence for ET spacecraft being kept
>secret. The ETH, at least as it is interpreted by many
>ufologists, depends on persuading people to believe that it is
>possible to keep the saucers secret. Stanton Friedman commented:

>"The naivety shown by the notion that we would have access to
>radar and spy satellite info, re space and airborne uncorrelated
>targets produced by the Aerospace Defense Command and NRO
>satellites and collected by NSA while listening to their foreign
>equivalents is monumental.

>"Just note that more than 95% of the 156 UFO documents released
>by the NSA are whited out. No way that is all sources and
>methods data."

Harney seems to feel that indeed all the above data hasn't been
kept secret. This from a country that just got a FOI system
going. Why was it needed if everything was available?

Yes, I had forgotten absence of evidence is evidence for

I gather you and Roberts and Clark believe there are no black
budget programs in the UK or anywhere else.

The DCI admitted 6 years ago because of a court case that his
black budget that year was 26.6 $Billion.

Have you read Tim Weiner's excellent book "Blank Check"?

The stealth fighter was developed and 50+ built over 10 years
for about 10 Billlion$ in secret. The NRL Corona Elint satellite
was launched in 1960 after a dozen failures. Its existence was
not admitted until 1995 when they wanted to brag about their
accomplishments and of course the technology had been greatly

12,000 people worked in Secret at Bletchley Park with no public
admission for more than 20 years.

And secrets can't be kept?

Neither the Aerospace Defense Command nor the NRO, nor the NSA
publish their findings. They literally spend billions a year and
secrets can't be kept??

>I replied, pointing out that he hadn't told us
>how UFO information gathered from radar or satellites, by
>governments and private organisations, amateur or professional,
>everywhere in the world is kept secret.

I have seen no such reply. But the answer is obvious:

Through the standard procedures involving secrity clearances,
need to know, well protected communication systems, etc.

There is no comparison between the government capabilities and
private ones. Who competes with the NRO or ADC?

Who has private or amateur fleets of very sophisiticated
aircraft and satellites to monitor air and space intruding

>I also wondered how he
>knew what was in the whited out parts of the UFO documents, as
>he implies that this hidden information concerns evidence for
>alien spacecraft.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I pointed out that information about UFOs is clearly being
witheld unless one is foolish enough to believe that the only
info about UFOs in these documents is what is not whited out and
the rest is Sources and Methods. Why was it filed under UFOs?

Please note that the 1996 version of the NSA Affidavit to Judge
Gesell is only about 20% blacked out compared with 80% in the
early version. But the UFO documents can only be 2-4% open? But
nothing about UFOs is being covered up.? Not every observation
of an auto involves a license plate. But the make and model and
colour can be very useful.

>If the sceptics indulge in "research by
>proclamation" as Friedman constantly tells us, then surely he is
>indulging in research by showmanship in waving whited-out
>documents at UFO conferences.

I show the documents to demonstrate that UFO information is
being witheld despite claims by the US government and sceptics
to the contrary . That I am effective in my presentations does
not detract from the fact that UFO information is being
withheld. Remember that I also show the blacked out CIA UFO
documents on which one can read 8 useless words. The CIA IS
withholding UFO information like it or not. Effective
showmanship or not.

The purpose of a presentation is to communicate. Perhaps that is
why my Leeds talk was rated 10/10. I communicated facts and
data... apparently with showmanship.

>Anyway, I intend to press for a plausible explanation as to how
>every government in the world has managed to preserve the Secret
>of the Saucers for over 50 years. I will probably have to wait a
>long time.

More absurdity. As explained above there are standard procedures
for dealing with classified information on a need-to-know basis
by people with appropriate clearances. Have you ever held a

What is this nonsense about every government in the world? I
certainly never said that. The number of governments with
sophisticated ADCs, spy satellites, sophisticated monitoring
aircraft, etc is a small number. I doubt if Bolivia or Paraquay
or a whole slew of African nations have such systems.

Have you forgotten that during the cold war both Russia and the
US witheld information from the public that each knew the other
government was aware of... overflights of U-2 aircraft?.
Reconnaissance aircraft of the other side were shot down when
getting too close. No public discussion.

Remember that FOI has many restrictions including National
Security. I provide a whole page in my Final Report on Operation
Majestic 12.

Surely it is not possible that you believe that the government
of the UK will not withhold any classified information?

Stan Friedman
in awe of the naivite

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