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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2002 > Jun > Jun 4

Re: UFO Frauds - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:17:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:20:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Frauds - Randle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 08:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys' - Randle


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:27:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:44:42 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Subject: Re: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Greys'

 >>>>From: Erik Landahl <cubman1@mindspring.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Bill Uhouse & Area 51 'Aliens'
 >>>>Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:08:51 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>>I noticed that Kevin Randle has agreed with Stanton Friedman on
 >>>Mel Noel (AKA Guy Kirkwood) and his story while he flew an F-86
 >>>Sabre jet back in 54. I recently talked with Guy at Rachel and
 >>>he passed around his military record of honorable discharge
 >>>(DD214) together with several pages of a United Airlines roster
 >>>with his name on it while he worked for that company. I saw no
 >>>evidence of record tampering, but these records could not be
 >>>found by public access. I do not have copies of these at this
 >>>time, but I have also seen photos of Guy in flight gear in the
 >>>cockpit of an F-86 when looking much younger. I suspect that
 >>>someone has tampered with his records as discovered by an FAA
 >>>investigator a few years ago when Guy was flying a private plane
 >>>and had to make an emergency landing on a freeway.

 >>Here is the point I was trying to make. We have good evidence
 >>that Mel Noel, who is also Guy Kirkwood, is not who he says he
 >>is. Don Ecker did an expose of him in UFO magazine and yet, here
 >>we are, suggesting that someone has tampered with his records.

 >My point is that you accept Don Ecker's expose. At one time
 >Ecker also wrote a supporting article on Bob Lazar. I am willing
 >to bet you would not accept the statements made in that article.
Bill, List, All -

My point is that you suggested I agreed with Stan Friedman, and
I pointed out that Ecker had come to the same conclusion. My
point is that no reliable corroboration for these stories has
been offered and no independent documentation is available.
These seem to me to be good reasons to doubt the authenticity of
Mel Noel.

And it is only in Ufology that no one is allowed to alter an
opinion based on more and better information. I accepted MJ-12
based on something that Warren Smith told me that, if true,
would have tended to validate MJ-12 through an independent
source. That independent corroboration never materialized and I
have since learned that Smith made up material he put into his
articles and his books.

So, the ball is now in Noel's (Kirkwood's) court to prove he was
somehow involved in what he claims. At the moment, the independent
documentation and evidence do not support him.

(I will note here that had these questions not arisen and had
Noel's credentials checked out, the ball would be in the court
of those suggesting he is not who he says he is. Since the
attempts to confirm his tales have failed, the burden shifts
back to him.)

 >An ex-USAF officer who was a co-worker of mine and I had lunch.
 >His testimony, dealing with high security events in the Air
 >Force, was that documents do get altered or removed. That was
 >his opinion based on his experience. If that is so, then an
 >investigator's job is made more difficult and we need other
 >avenues of approach.

No one has denied that some documents get altered, some get
shredded, and some just disappear. The point is that it is
impossible to hide all the traces of these activities, yet the
government, according to these sources is able to do it. Hell,
they can even recover all copies of a daily newspaper to
suppress a UFO story.

 >The fact is, also, I know of two witnesses who obtained (through
 >FOIA) the CIA reports on their reported sightings and both
 >complained about inaccuracies in these documents. One went about
 >the task of sending the CIA a list of corrections.

Mistakes in documents are not the same as a cover-up. Go through
the Project Blue Book files and see all the mistakes in there.
My favorite (at the moment) is their attempt to remove all
traces of Ken Arnold's name in the file, blacking out even his
initials in the transcript of a telephone conversation... but
someone had written, in big, black grease pencil across top of
the transcript "ARNOLD CASE."

Or carefully removing everyone's name from a case file but
leaving the news clippings unaltered so that we can figure out
who all the witnesses are.

 >>Well, I agree, but I think we know who that was. He has
 >>presented a DD-214 that no one can get through public access.
 >>There is no good evidence that he is who he said he is, or that
 >>his stories are true. Instead we hear that someone tampered with
 >>his records.

 >I have known Guy now since 1977 and have always heard a
 >consistent story from him including the photos he has shown me,
 >however Guy has drawbacks in that he gets involved with
 >"schemes" that he believes in and I don't which make him look
 >like a huckster and I will be the first to admit that, but I
 >have not yet thrown away his USAF story and see no reason to,
 >but admit it loses value because his records have not been
 >accessed by other investigators from military archives and
 >examined and compared to his claims.

Then we basically agree... investigation should continue but the
report suffers from a lack of independent verification.

 >>As they tampered with Bob Lazar's records when no one could
 >>corroborate what he said.

 >Not completely true as I have talked to witnesses, one who
 >worked on the TTR and knew Bob and knew about S4. The Tonopah
 >Test Range is a secure area, but not as secure as Area 51. I
 >have been out to this area several times mostly interviewing
 >witnesses of UFO sightings in that area known as the Tikaboo
 >Valley.

Yes, yes, and I talked to guy who worked with Lazar and said he
was just a technician... besides, you're forgetting that his
claimed college education is, well, imaginary.

 >>Or that Gerald Anderson provided some documentation for his
 >>story, but no one could corroborate it and we know that he
 >>forged two documents... his telephone bill and his high school
 >>transcript... and now his Navy service is in question because it
 >>is clear that he was not a SEAL as he claimed.

 >This is something that would surely dead agent his story. There
 >is no excuse for forgery.

Or for lying about a case and inventing information.

I once showed all the evidence to a fellow at a MUFON
conference, so that he would know that we had Anderson dead to
rights on one of the forged documents and he wanted to know how
I knew that the government hadn't intercepted Anderson's phone
bill and then altered it to make Anderson look bad. There comes
a point when we must realize that the government just isn't that
good.

 >>Or that Cliff Stone wasn't trained as a clerk typist when his
 >>record showed that he was and that all his assignments in the
 >>Army were in administration... which he denies.

 >This is another case I am not sure about.

Just read the article he published in UFO magazine a number of
years ago about how he would sneak off the base at night to
"hunt" the bad guys.

Or remember that he tried to convince me that he was really an
officer, I suppose, undercover.

Or that he believed Larry Warren because he had read the
Bentwaters file.(Had he actually read it, then he would have
known that Warren wasn't physically present for the two nights
of activity because he was, in fact, in Germany.)

Or that he went out to his car one night and retrieved a top
secret file that he carried through the house to impress us all.
Well, if he was leaving top secret material in his car, then he
was going to jail.

 >>Or that Don Schmitt didn't work at the Post Office and that he
 >>had taken classes as several universities that had no record of
 >>him.

 >Don has certainly done himself in doing that. However, his
 >presentation, at least the one I heard, did not deviate much
 >from the books you both co-authored. He may give other
 >presentations that exaggerate claims, but I have not heard them.
 >Your probably should be thankful that he doesn't go off the deep
 >end (at least not at a MUFON presentation).

Why should I be thankful? Shouldn't we all be thankful? I mean,
you can't read an "anti-Roswell" book without tripping over the
lies told by Don Schmitt.

Ask him why he was telling people I was a government agent, and
when he denies he ever said that, I'll tell you which of his
friends heard him say it.

<snip>

 >We have an Astrobiology Society on campus and sure wish they
 >would be open to the UFO-alien question.

But they never will as long as we keep following these strange
tales that have no corroboration and listening to people who
have been exposed time and again. Next thing you know, I'm going
to hear that we can trust Carlos Allende and that the Stardust
disappeared into the Bermuda Triangle after sending "STENDEC"
three times.

KRandle



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