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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2002 > Jan > Jan 3

Re: New Year Agenda - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:31:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 03:15:07 -0500
Subject: Re: New Year Agenda - Friedman

 >Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 14:40:52 -0600
 >Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: New Year Agenda
 >>Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:58:50 -0400


 >>I must jump in on Kevin's side on this one. Dennis you haven't
 >>done your homework as to how the witnesses were found. I was the
 >>first to talk to many of them. They were not seeking me out. I
 >>was referred to Marcel by a TV station mangager while we were
 >>twiddling our thumbs waiting for a late reporter. He had seen
 >>the newspaper article about Marcel - July 8 PM papers all over -
 >>West of Chicago. When Marcel was in nearby Houma and he began
 >>talking over short wave radio he asked Marcel about it. He was
 >>told nothing. That was in the late 1940s. I was the first to
 >>talk to Haut. I had called the Roswell DR asking for their old
 >>editor - 1978..... Long gone."What do you need? Have an article
 >>here about Walter Haut at the base.... his wife works here!!!."


 >Please help yourself, but I think you're kind of missing the
 >point here. I never suggested that the men of the 509th called
 >you first, that you and others (assuming you're willing to share
 >any of the Limelight, of course) didn't seek them out for their

I must again point out that Haut, Marcel, DuBose, Ramey,
Blanchard were all mentioned in July 1947 articles about a
crashed saucer. Blanchard died in 1966. Ramey after that. The
others could hardly deny they had been involved. None of them
were in command positions about such an event. I can see no
reason why they would have been informed about the disposition
of the wreckage, the bodies or anything else. They each talked
(at least 30 years later) about their roles in the story for the
brief time they were involved. Whether they each kept back some
or a lot of information we have no way of knowing.

I had located Cavitt, way back when. His name had not appeared
in the press coverage. He lied, misrepresented, etc for years. I
had located Easley. He wouldn't respond to my written material,
and, as Kevin has noted, was very careful about what he said. He
could hardly deny, because of his position (unlike Kimball)
being involved at all. He, too, had not been named publicly and
would have, like Cavitt, had an important role to play.

 >My point, which isn't all that subtle, is this:

 >Time and again you have said that the 509th consisted of
 >hand-picked men who could keep a secret. Compartmentalization,
 >need to know, and all that. Yet when you reach them by
 >telephone, they seem to display little hesitation in being quite
 >talkative about their experiences.

 >So which is it: were they tight-lipped or not? You can't have it
 >both ways.

Of course we can. They could hardly deny being involved. Marcel
wouldn't tell the TV guy anything back in the late 1940s.
Remember none of these guys knew much if anything about what
Bill Moore, Kevin, myself and others were digging up from other
people. None when first talked to expected Roswell to become a
household name.

Irving Newton, also mentioned in the early stories, could hardly
deny involvement. But he sure lied, as did Cavitt, after being
briefed by Col. Weaver et al. I see no reason to think they were
not very careful about what they said about their day to
activities involving nuclear weapons, target locations etc.
Flying saucer wreckage hardly had any relveance to their day to
day activities.

As I mentioned in my comments about Kent Jeffrey, B-29 pilots
hardly had a need-to-know about flying saucer wreckage. It would
not make them better pilots. Most secrets come out long before
thirty years. Pappy had indeed told his WW 2 Bombardier for 30
missions over Europe about it at a reunion in the early 1980s.
He had told his close friend Dr. John Kromshroeder, on John's
honor as a former navy officer, in the late 1970s.

General Exon told me that he did not have a need to know for
everything ahppening at WPAF even when he was base commander. I
mentioned that Officer Madson had one job at WPAF that was so
classified his own boss didn't know about it..

Don't forget about the guys who were kciked out of the 509th
before they left for Tinian becaus they talked about working on
some secret project at bars where government spies heard them.
None of them even knew it involved nuclear weapons. But their
being shipped out was a good lesson for those left in the

 >Nor can you claim that they wouldn't have talked among
 >themselves at reunions, only to start singing when you gave them
 >a ring. Why would they share secrets with someone they couldn't
 >have known from Adam, but not with each other? Maybe this makes
 >sense to you and Randle, but it doesn't to me. I'm still waiting
 >to be enlightened.

Who says any of them attended reunions? Their limited
involvement was already known if they had been at reunions. I
was at the 50th reunion of the 509th in Wendover. None of our
Roswell guys were.

 >>I located Dubose thru' the West Point Alumni group and called
 >>him. Remember Haut, Marcel, DuBose were all named in the flood
 >>of early articles. I sought the appropriate mortician from an
 >>old Physician; he referred me to one, he referred me to
 >>another, he referred me to Glenn and knew where he was. I got a
 >>phone listing for Bill Brazel a week after his first phone was
 >>installed. There was a great deal of other research... you know
 >>the kind that caused my phone bill to be hundreds of dollars a

 >No one's trying to detract from your accomplishments. I'm asking
 >a very simple question: why do you think these people sang to
 >the first researcher that came calling? Figuratively speaking,
 >of course, and civilians excepted.

Just what singing did they do? It was many months after I talked
to Marcel and then Vern and Jean Maltais before Bill Moore
talked to Hughie Green's family to find the date when he heard
radio broadcasts while driving across the country. (Green's
article was in FSR)

Bill then went to the Periodicals Dept. at U. of MN and found
the many stories. This gave an independent verification to the
Marcel story and provided us with many names. Loren Gross
informed us of something he found about a Sheridan Cavitt, that
enabled us to find him. Of course I could suggest that my
background credentials (nuclear physicist who had worked on many
classified programs) and my persuasive manner immediately
convinced them to try hard to recall events of a long time ago.

Kevin's background in military intelligence probably helped
convince some people to talk a bit to him. It obviously didn't
convince Cavitt. Mrs. Cavitt quietly told Bill Moore while Cav
was out of the room that "he was told not to say anything".
Bill had mentioned finding Cavitt at MUFON in Toronto before he
had spoken to him... No choir...

 >>It appears you don't understand how security works or you
 >>wouldn't have published Kent Jeffrey's long ode to ignorance
 >>about security in the MJ. My 5 page response, requested by Walt,
 >>but not published, is on my web site at:


 >>for those interested in the facts. Try Crash at Corona for some
 >>facts about how things got rolling.

 >Hmm, would you mind telling us again how security works in MJ?
 >Is it anything like it works in the 509th? Which, seemingly, is
 >not at all.

Again there is no basis for saying security didn't work in the
509th. Just how many articles were there, aside from Frank
Edwards' grossly distorted version, about Roswell before the
publication of The Roswell Incident in 1980? It didn't take that
long to get out the code breaking work at Bletchley Park.

 >I'm tempted to say you don't know how human nature works. You
 >seem to think there's a system that insures security, when
 >nothing could be further from the truth. It's the system and the
 >people in it, which means there are no guarantees because no
 >system can absolutely prohibit Individual behavior.

Nobody said there were any guarantees. That the DCI had a black
budget of $26.6 Billion in 1996 indicates that security works
pretty well. Yes there have been a number of spies who sold out.
Pretty tiny fraction of those who had access.

 >Exhibit A: 'When Betrayal and Paranoia Are Part of the Job' in
 >today's NY Times editorial page, about Robert Hanssen's selling
 >of FBI secrets. According to the author, Tom Mangold, Hanssen
 >sold his country out not for crass cash, but for "peer

 >Exhibit B: Songbirds of the 509th?

Haven't seen any concert announcements.Nor many documents
released other than from the FBI in the 1970s no less.. thanks
to Bruce Maccabee


By the way did you read my piece on Kent Jeffrey? It deals with
a number of the points being raised here.

Stan Friedman

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