From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 04:26:46 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Kecksburg - Response, Review & Update - Sparks


 >From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:41:21 -0500
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >Subject: Kecksburg - Response, Review & Update


PART 2

 >Many people, publicly and
 >confidentially, have described the surprising arrival of
 >military personnel and vehicles that they saw around the
 >Kecksburg area that day.

Are these stories published only in the 80's or 90's and never
made public in 1965?


Witnesses at various locations around
 >the community say they saw marked military cars, jeeps, 6x6
 >trucks, personnel carriers, and one or more flat bed
 >tractor-trailer trucks. Linda Foschia said she saw a military
 >convoy moving along the Greensburg-Mount Pleasant road towards
 >Kecksburg on that evening in 1965.

This sounds like a late retrospective from the 80's or 90's.

 >The late James Mayes was the 1st Assistant Fire Chief of
 >Kecksburg at the time of the incident. I had the opportunity to
 >converse with this gentleman many times over the years. Mayes
 >was one of the first involved in the search effort that day for
 >what was thought to have been a possible downed aircraft. At
 >one point, a state trooper drove Mayes and another fireman to
 >the top of Kuhn's Lane where they looked down into the woods and
 >saw "flashing blue lights." The trooper would not allow them to
 >enter further into the woods. The trooper later took the firemen
 >back to the Kecksburg Fire Station. When they arrived at the
 >fire station, Mayes stated that the military had shown up.
 >Mayes stated, "There was quite a few military men at the station
 >which they used as a command post." He estimated that there was
 >around 25 personnel that he saw along with military vehicles
 >that were parked around the back of the two bay truck garage.

When was Mayes' story first made public? Why wasn't this blasted
all over the media in 1965?

 >Jim Romansky, not from the Kecksburg area, states that he was a
 >member of another fire company which had been called out to
 >assist in the search for a possible downed aircraft that day.

Later on you say Romansky "returned to the Kecksburg fire
station" which contradicts what's stated here about not being a
member of that fire company.

 >The search teams had been combing the woods when a call came in
 >over a walkie-talkie that another team had found the crash site.
 >Jim's team hurried over to the location and were puzzled by
 >what they saw. Jim stood on a bank about five feet from the
 >partially buried off-gold colored acorn-shaped object. Jim, who
 >has been a machinist much of his life, said it gave him the
 >impression that someone had taken liquid metal and poured it
 >into an acorn shaped mold. There were no rivets, seams, wings,
 >or fuselage apparent, and the object appeared as one solid piece
 >of metal, unlike a conventional aircraft.

 >Jim, can only estimate the size of the object since it wasn't
 >entirely visible. He said that it was 10 to 12 feet or more in
 >length, and about 8 to 10 feet in diameter. He believes that a
 >grown man could have easily stood up inside of the device. On
 >the rear of the object was a ringed area about 8 to 10 inches
 >wide, but less in height. It was on this area that strange
 >markings similar to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics were seen.
 >Jim has stated, "It looked like someone took a welding rod and
 >just welded a bead for the different designs."

 >Jim and the other firemen speculated over the object. Two men
 >dressed in overcoats appeared on the scene and told the
 >searchers that the area was now under quarantine and they had to
 >leave. Behind these two men were a group of military personnel.
 >Jim said they passed within 5 feet of each other. When he and
 >the others returned to the Kecksburg fire station, Jim says it
 >was occupied by the military.

Did Romansky see the State Troopers or did he confuse them with
the "military"? When was Romansky's story first made public? Why
wasn't this blasted all over the media in 1965?

 >One of many witnesses that has described the military response
 >to Kecksburg has been Robert L. Bitner. Bob Young is correct.
 >Bitner was not the Kecksburg fire chief in 1965. Bitner had
 >gotten his service years mixed up. He later realized that he had
 >gone out as chief in 1964. He was an active Kecksburg volunteer
 >fireman in 1965. Bitner was truck driver, and after finishing
 >up his route, drove into Kecksburg after hearing a news report
 >about the fallen object.

 >I am sure that we all realize that news reporters are sometimes
 >limited to space and can't always give a complete account of an
 >event. Bitner did not arrive in the area until late in the
 >evening. He located a Kecksburg fire truck parked near an old
 >farmhouse with several firemen standing around. They told
 >Bitner that something had fallen from the sky into the ravine
 >below. Bitner was present later that night (not earlier in the
 >evening) when a small group of military vehicles came into that
 >area. Among the vehicles was a personnel carrier and a 6x6
 >military truck. ( Bitner never viewed the flatbed
 >tractor-trailer truck which other witnesses said carried the
 >object away from the area.) The military proceeded down into the
 >wooded hollow. Bitner and the other firemen were not permitted
 >to go along. When the military came back up from the woods, the
 >firemen were told they could leave, and Bitner went directly
 >home.

Why didn't he see the State Troopers too? When was Bitner's
story first made public? Why wasn't this blasted all over the
media in 1965?

 >Robert Blystone Jr. walked into Kecksburg that evening. He said
 >there was military everywhere- on the street corners, and on the
 >roads. At one point he went to an area where he could see down
 >to the fire station where he saw military vehicles parked there.
 >He said the military were armed with rifles and sidearms.

If only he or someone else among those "hundreds" (see below)
had a camera and took a picture of this scene!

 >Larry Snyder and some teenage friends tried to sneak down into
 >the woods to see what had reportedly fallen. Snyder said they
 >went to two different locations that evening. At each location,
 >there was an armed military man who prevented them from entering
 >towards the impact site. When Snyder asked what fell, a soldier
 >answered saying that a meteor had landed.

When was Snyder's story first made public? Why wasn't this
blasted all over the media in 1965?

 >James Mayes and other Kecksburg firemen drove some military
 >"brass" on their 1961 four wheel drive pumper towards the impact
 >site. They drove through the fields toward the woods near a
 >farmhouse that was being rented by the Hays family. When they
 >started to descend into a hollow, the military said that this
 >was as far as the firemen could go. The fire truck was turned
 >back and the military officers proceeded on foot. Mayes
 >estimated that there were four or five of the officers that were
 >holding onto the running boards and tail board of the pumper
 >truck.

 >Lillian Hays and her son, John, confirm that military personnel
 >and men in suits frequented their rented farmhouse that night in
 >1965. The visitors made many phone calls from the house, located
 >not far from the impact site in the woods. John overhead a
 >conversation and learned that NASA was also on the way to that
 >location. Later that evening, he saw a man wearing a NASA
 >patch. A NASA representative reportedly interviewed some
 >eyewitnesses of the Kecksburg incident at the time.

When were the Hayses' stories first made public? Why wasn't this
blasted all over the media in 1965?

 >During the evening, radio and tv stations began breaking news
 >that an Unidentified Flying Object had reportedly fallen in the
 >Kecksburg area and that the military was arriving.

Prove that any of these news reports demonstrate that anything
more than the 3-man Blue Book-authorized radar squadron team
actually went to Kecksburg. This is the whole point! Here is
where we need to see convincing documentation, not in
30-year-old contaminated recollections of witnesses who didn't
speak up at the time.

 >Hundreds of
 >people, after hearing the news, rushed to this quiet rural
 >community, trying to see what had fallen, as did the news media.

Let's see _photos_ from someone among these "hundreds" of
civilians and reporters showing military roadblocks, cordon,
jeeps, tractor-trailer, APC's, etc. Strange that the news media
can get photos of everything else, including plane crashes, but
didn't think to bring along a camera for a military invasion of
a small town for an unusual aerial crash.

 >Brad Sparks asked for the names of reporters who were on the
 >scene at Kecksburg that day.

No I asked for the names of reporters on the scene who confirmed
the alleged military presence _and_ published their accounts
when it happened, in Dec 1965. Out of _"hundreds"_ of witnesses
surely there are contemporaneous news reports confirming the US
military (not Blue Book) cordoning off a crash site. Surely they
would have photos of the military cordon given that they had a
whole night of time to get cameras, and had nothing else to do
if they were prevented from getting to the alleged crash scene.

 >I don't recall ever saying that
 >reporters saw the object being recovered at the site. The
 >reporters and the public were prevented from going down into the
 >woods and approaching the impact site, which had reportedly been
 >cordoned off.

And I didn't say you had said that Stan. The point is that the
reporters not only didn't see a crashed object themselves but
they did not _report_ in Dec 1965 anyone else seeing it either.
How do we really know that the reporters were "prevented" from
reaching the site by a cordon they apparently never reported at
the time it supposedly happened? And how does a "cordon" prove
U.S. military involvement? State Troopers can cordon off a site
too and they reportedly were present -- assuming those reports
were more reliable than those for a US military "presence." I
see slippery equivocation here. When "military" is to be proved
it turns out to be Blue Book's three-man local radar team. When
a "cordon" is cited, the word "military" is dropped off so it
turns out to be State Troopers.

 >Most of the crowds of people that evening, including reporters,
 >were located on the narrow country road (Meteor Road) that
 >bordered the large wooded area where the object reportedly fell,
 >and was the best overlook of the area.

Why no photos of the crowd scene? This was a tremendous human
interest story if nothing else. Had anything bigger occurred in
Kecksburg's history for the previous century?

 >The object, however,
 >apparently fell on the opposite side of the woods. From that
 >road location where most of the people were standing, observers
 >could not see what was happening on the other side, which was in
 >the distance and blocked by woods. According to a number of
 >people who were in the other area, we have learned that military
 >activity was occurring on a farm lane, in various field
 >locations, and down near the woods by the impact location.

 >John Murphy, the WHJB radio news director who was the first
 >reporter on the scene, confirmed, via radio broadcast, that he
 >had seen both members of the Army and Air Force at the state
 >police barracks who would take part in the search for the
 >object.

Murphy saw _a few_ Army men with a few AF men in _Greensburg_
and _not_ in Kecksburg cordoning off crash site and roads. The
exact content of the "radio broadcast" isn't even clear given
the next sentences (below) indicating something about multiple
versions of the Murphy radio documentary.

 >Murphy took detailed notes during his investigation of
 >the Kecksburg incident and produced a radio documentary called
 >"Object In The Woods," that had been scheduled to be broadcast
 >just days after the event.

Well was it broadcast or not? What date? These are basic
documentation details that when I don't see them I start getting
nervous that someone is trying to pull a fast one over me.

 >Prior to the broadcast, Murphy began to receive calls from
 >witnesses he had interviewed that no longer wanted their
 >statements aired. Murphy included the following statement in his
 >radio report: "We received other calls early tonight from some
 >other people who had said they had changed their mind now at
 >the last minute and did not want the statements they had made
 >over this past weekend used on this radio program tonight. One
 >person said that they were afraid of the state police, and
 >another person said they did not want to get in trouble with the
 >Army. We will present a cut and edited version of the radio
 >program, "Object In The Woods." We regret that part of this
 >program had to be censored and other parts of the program had to
 >be cut out entirely."

Was this actually broadcast or not? What date? How does this
prove anyone _saw_ Army troops in Kecksburg?

 >Robert Gatty was a reporter for the Greensburg, PA
 >Tribune-Review. Gatty wanted to go down into the woods that day
 >but was prevented from doing so by the authorities. The December
 >10, 1965, headlines of the County edition of the Tribune-Review
 >read, "Army Ropes Off Area, Unidentified Flying Object Falls
 >Near Kecksburg."

Suddenly we get _documentation_ of author name, date, place,
publication title, which we were never given before for all the
preceding stories (see above). And it turns out it's because the
headline is a lie, the body of the newspaper story itself that
is quoted next (below) says nothing about the "Army Ropes Off
Area," only that Army Engineers were "expected" to "arrive" and
not even saying they would "rope off" anything! See below:

 >In the story it states, "Tribune Review staff
 >writer Robert Gatty reported from the scene that ‘no one is
 >being allowed near the object.' State police officials there, he
 >said, ordered the area roped off to await the expected arrival
 >of both U.S. Army Engineers and, possibly, civilian scientists."

So it was _only_ State Police who "roped off" the area. Why no
followup story _after_ the Army supposedly was going to arrive
telling who they were, where they were based, what they found or
refused to say they found, etc.?

Could it be that townspeople read sloppy reporting such as this
at the time, then over the years have mixed up in their memories
the State Police cordon with what was _expected_ to be the
Army's, never realizing that the Army never came? Could someone
have read about the expected "possible" arrival of "civilian
scientists" then imagined hearing that they did perhaps from
someone who made the same assumption?

 >Gatty wrote another story on this incident for the City Edition
 >of the same paper which appeared also on December 10, 1965.
 >Those headlines read, "Resident Tells of Mysterious Encounter,
 >Unidentified Flying Object Report Touches Off Probe Near
 >Kecksburg." On that same page another story also ran about the
 >UFO incident, which read, "Searchers Fail To Find Object."
 >Officially nothing was found during the search of the woods.

Whose "search"? Is this an attempt to insinuate that the
newspaper confirmed that the Army actually searched the site
rather than the Blue Book radar squadron team?

 >The
 >speculation was that observers had only seen a bright meteor in
 >the sky, and nothing had fallen to the ground.

And this proves a "military presence" besides Blue Book's? It's
a pity that we don't have a followup story given that we have so
many on Dec 10. A followup that tells about the Army Engineers
actually arriving and searching and cordoning off and setting up
roadblocks and bringing in loads of vehicles, etc. It's just so
simple.

 >Ernie Hoffman was also a reporter for the Greensburg, PA
 >Tribune-Review in 1965. He replaced Robert Gatty in Kecksburg
 >that night, so that Gatty could return to the newspaper office
 >and work on the story.

Notice the sleight of hand here. There is now nothing about a
specific newspaper story of a given title, publication date and
quoted contents. We know right away that this is going to be a
tale that was for some inexplicable reason never published in,
say, the Dec 11, 1965, edition of the Greensburg Tribune-Review.
Please note my increasing disappointment at the ever mounting
failure to prove the sensational events from 1965 publications
or broadcasts. Heck, I'll take 1966 publications if you've got
them pr


[Arrived truncated --ebk]