From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:36:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:18:18 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:50:35 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Dear Stephen, Dennis, Kevin, and other Asleep-in-the-Deep List
 >Members,

 >Stephen, your theories would be so very comforting, if they were
 >based in reality. I don't know how old you are, so you may not

"... if they were based in reality." Judging by the date stamp
on the message of mine to which you were responding I can only
wonder what in my post you find "unreal." Just like you must be
wondering what part of your or other abductees experiences I
find "unreal." You seem to think I consider yours and others
encounters as "unreal." I said no such so if you want to
criticize the data I find convincing of being "real" just let me
know and I will try and better explain it as it is quite "real."
But then again, that's what this entire discussion is about
isn't it? What each person allows to qualify as "real evidence"
for ufos and abductions as some sort of encounter with "Others."

Onward into the smog...

 >be able to associate with this little comparative metaphor.  If
 >not, pick another *very* traumatic experience in your life, it
 >works much the same way.

 >Do you remember what you were doing, where you were, who you
 >were with the afternoon of the day JFK was shot and killed?  If
 >you were old enough, you'd probably remember.  Thousands of
 >people remember what they were doing at that moment, who they
 >were with,  the feelings and conversations they had with those
 >around them at that moment.

Firstly, I am too young to remember that particular horror story
of Amerikan history. Tho nearly everytime I am forced to
"relive" a memory I wasn't even alive at the time to experience,
I cry my heart out at this conspiracy which murdered the valient
heart of the United States. The psyche of America was never the
same - it had transmutated into the rigidified National Security
State.

So on to "equally" potent memories of traumatic events (not
necessarily against my own person in your example). Let's see,
how about the memory of my being shot at during the San Antonio
Battle de Flowers parade when I was in about 4th grade? See my
account of that experience which I wrote when I was in high
school here: http://www.elfis.net/ELFOL6/smlehe2a.htm

As much as I know this event happened and I can even speak to my
mother about it and consult the newspaper reports, my memory of
it is _not_ crystal clear. Oh sure the images I wrote in the
piece are imbedded in my mind but do I necessarily think of them
as an _exact_ representation of "actuality?" I think they are
fairly accurate but I would be hard pressed to state so
unequivocaly.

How about another example, more in line perhaps with your
original JFK analogy (tho the shooting at a parade seems similar
enuf). Here is the entry from my high school journal for
1/28/86:

"I have been putting off making this sort of "diary" you might
say for a while now for many reasons. Today though I have
changed my mind and decided to start it. Today, when I was on my
way to third period I heard a teacher telling a student
something. What caught my attention was the student asking the
teacher "was anybody hurt?" He replied, "I don't think there
were any survivors." In a hurry I rushed off to Algebra. When I
got there I went and sat down in my seat. When my friend Rhonda
entered the room she rushed over to me and said "It's so sad."
"What is," I asked her. She said the space shuttle had blown up.
My first thought was that the shuttle had either blown up on the
launch pad, had blown up in space, or that it was a sick rumor
someone had told her. Throughout the day I learned more of what
had happened.

This was to be the 25th space shuttle mission. It was the one
that was to have the first teacher in space. At 1 minute and 18
seconds after the launch, a huge explosion of flames engulfed
the space shuttle challenger. All seven people aboard were
killed. What caused the explosion is not known yet. I'm having
trouble believing this has happened. It could have been Mr.
Warren, one of the teacher's at my school. He was one of the
finalists. He had come to be a friend of the teacher who was on
the last flight of the challenger.

I'm just hoping that people won't lose support for the space
program. I think ... "

And that is where my diary ends. I didn't write in it again till
November of that year. Do I remember these events? Yes. Do I
remember them clearly? Pretty much. I cried a lot over the
shuttle disaster. But if I try to remember other details of both
the above events I can't honestly say I would trust my memories
of them. Sorry, that's just the nature of _my_ memory. Some
things are cyrstal clear and I feel I can trust - tho becuz of
what I know of perception I would never allege to be 100% sure
of _anything_ perceived by _anyone_.

 >Just *one* "visit" is exactly like that...except that *they* try
 >really hard to make you forget.  Sometimes it works for several
 >months or years, and then the memories (not dreams) begin to
 >creep back in, like a cat stalking you in the pitch black night.
 >Not fun.  No welcoming mat out.

I'm quite aware of the various descriptions of encounters with
with entities of every variety, shape, form, size, behavior from
the world over. From the Nordics, reptoids, "greys", insectoids,
amoeboids, robotic and exotic types (in Patrick Huyghe's
terminology), and my favorites... the South American hairy dwarf
type which tends towards the same Grey Alien like activities
only without all the groovy lights and bedroom visitations.

As to the amnesia which "they" impose... before we assume "they"
did it, could it not be that humans tend to black it out
themselves? Vallee and other more qualified medical doctors have
studied the effects on consciousness of the perception of
certain shocking stimuli and generally, the two effects noted
were either the blacking out of consciousness so as to hinder
the input of said stimuli (missing time?) or the confabulation
of the perception by the human mind itself to portray the
shocking perception as something more palatable to human
awareness. I believe this can be found in Richard Haines UFO
Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist.

I assume that you believe that "they" impose the amnesia due to
feelings or perceptions of these visitors "telling" you so. Any
search of the abduction and contact literature will show many
experiencers and researchers believe we shouldn't take these
entities at their words. "They lie!" And besides not telling us
the truth (or doing so in symbolic, metaphoric, metalogical,
analogous fashions as I suspect) their very nature seems to
distort human perceptions of reality.

 >Now, try and remember *any* dream you've had in the last week,
 >and compare it to those memories you had that day when you heard
 >the news about JFK.  One is vivid, conscious recall, as though
 >it happened 5 minutes ago; the other is a clearly a dream,
 >slippery, misty, fades and disappears from memory, especially
 >when talked about.

Continuing your suggested experiment... I have always remembered
my dreams more than anyone else I know. In fact, in trying to
trace they "why" of my obsession with these subjects I am
confronted with the realization that it mostly stems from an
early age dream recall, lucid dreams, psychic experiences, and a
love of science fiction. Cosmos and Star Wars were perhaps the
most formative media complexes which influenced my interests and
beliefs.

I'm sorry but your analogy just doesn't work in my case. I still
to this day remember my dreams of the past few nights (and
years) just as murkily as I remember being shot at during the
San Antonio parade as well as during my discovery of the
challenger space shuttle disaster.

And actually, dream recall is entirely contrary to what you
state above... the more one talks about a dream, the more one
cements the images and experiences into one's "memory." At least
for me and all those whom I've read books about as well as all
the people who've shared their dreams with me over the years.

One further example of dream memory versus waking memory.
Another time back in high school I had a dream wherein I asked a
girl out on a date. I was real nervous but finally had asked her
out for a Saturday night rendezvous. I'd had a crush on her for
ages. I woke up the next day, amnesiac of the night's dream,
went to school. As I was walking through a stairwell I saw the
girl and was walking up to her about to say something like "see
ya saturday!" When I suddenly stopped myself dead in my tracks.
It hit me in a wave of memory... I had only _dreamed_ it! I had
never actually spoken to this girl in my entire life. Similarly
I have had dreams within which I had _memories_ both from
previous _real_ dreams as well as memories of dreams I _know_ I
had never actually had - tho how can anyone say for sure as we
all induce amnesia of these midnight encounters every single
day.

 >Now, what happens if the JFK memory is purposefully manipulated
 >in your mind to make you think what you experienced that day was
 >all a dream.  Therein may lie the crux of a partial answer to
 >the questions, "Did it happen; can we trust our memories?  Or
 >were they dreams?" Big difference.

Your suggestion of a purposeful twisting manipulation of certain
memories is indeed powerful. Unfortunately we know of some
incidents wherein this very thing has been done to people.
Vallee has evidence of certain prominent abduction researchers
"misrepresenting" the abductees experiences as told to him by
those disgruntled abductees. He also has evidence of "abductees"
who were in fact abused by cults utilizing hypnosis and or drugs
as well as masks and props to convince the victims of the
"alien" nature of the experiences.

We have numerous court cases of satanic ritual and child abuse
being overturned and the therapists jailed for what they have
done. We have pseudo-prominant abduction therapists whose
name(s) can't be mentioned on this list who have lost their
licenses over similar practices.

We have experiments which show how easily a memory can be
induced in the average person.

_But_ we also have a very real phenomena which probably involves
contact with intelligences and consciousnesses of a number of
equally valid "sources." Some of which are probably
extraterrestrial if not ultraterrestrial. To say otherwise is to
be as closed minded as I seem to be perceived by you.

 >Make no mistake, the burns I received from their laser attached
 >to a transporter in my bedroom in 1961 was no dream.  Try
 >burning yourself with a laser and tell me it was a dream.  Ha!
 >If you don't scream your head off, you're either an alien and/or
 >dead.  I still have the scars, and I know exactly where I was,
 >how I got those burns, who was with me (a bunch of inept aliens)
 >and the conversation (screaming rage) that I leveled at them.

Good. You have evidence and want to investigate it in order to
prove the validity / reality of your sense perceptions and
physiological after-effects (the scar).

But tell me, _how_ is the documenting of your scar going to
prove any of what you claim? I am not asking this to disavow
your experiences as real. I am simply trying to ask, what
evidence would it take to prove (to me, you, or most of the
world) that, a- your scar was caused by a laser, b- that said
laser was of an extraterrestrial origin, c- that the sense
perceptions you perceived were exact representations of what you
were actually interacting with?

I want to know what it would take to convince most people as
well as scientists and governments. Honestly, I sadly think that
there is nothing, short of open continued public contact in
daylight, that can or will prove what you believe.

However, I applaud any efforts to do so.

 >Please, please wake up people.  You say you want to help.  John
 >V. gave you a challenge.  I will give you another, very direct
 >and specific. Let's see how many of you really want to help.
 >You can reach me at Strick@h2net.net .  My husband and I are in
 >the process of moving, but I will give you specific details of
 >information I need to find, if you want to really help "find
 >proof."  I only want *true skeptics* and doubting Thomas' to
 >respond.  All others need not apply.

I guess I am a doubting Thomas, however I have no idea how I
could help you. My approach to "helping" people like yourself
when they came to the UFO Abductee/Experiencer Support group I
ran was to give them as many theories and perspectives as
possible so that they didn't rush to any conclusions about the
nature of their experiences. To my mind this is the only fair
thing to do. It bypasses the needs of the researcher who only
wants data to so as to better understand the phenomena while the
therapist is only concerned with helping the experiencer
integrate the experience and get on with life. I think my
approach does a better job than either approach on its own.

 >You probably wonder why I can't do it myself.  I've tried, but
 >cannot follow through.  I get as far as lifting the receiver or
 >composing the letters and then trash them, or hang up.  The fear
 >of ridicule is there, but more strongly is a deep-seated fear
 >that I'm not supposed to be talking about this with *anyone*, or
 >asking the kinds of questions I need to ask to get the answers I
 >need.  Maybe it's all hallucinations, but you'll have to prove
 >that this burn scar on my right calf is an hallucination. Sorry,
 >I don't believe in stigmata anymore than you believe in EBEs.
 >Should make for an interesting teaching/learning experience for
 >all involved.

Whether you believe in stigmata or not it is a fact that people
under the influence of hypnosis (and other altered states of
consciousness) can have welts and blisters raised on their skin
after someone tells them they are about to be touched with a
substance they are known to be physically allergic to. When they
are told this and then touched with a substance which is _not_
said allergen, they develop a welt. If this isn't actualized
stigmata I guess you are right and it doesn't exist.

I feel for your struggle as I have felt for all those whom I
have interacted with who are coming to grips with these phenoms.

 >Help me find the proof (IF it's there) of my experiences, beyond
 >the *stories* I and thousands of others tell. What is plainly
 >visible as proof to me, may not be to you.  But for anyone who
 >has the courage to touch those scars and let reality sink in,
 >it's enough impetus to begin looking...very hard. Help me find
 >me the answers.

 >Sue Strickland

Good luck Sue. Really, I mean that. I'm sorry to say but the
only way scientists and the public will start taking this
seriously is if instrumented science finds its way into the
bedrooms of experiencers like you and can finally get some sort
of physical data on _something_ actually occurring during one of
these encounters. There is in fact such a project underway, so
perhaps someone on this list (or I could) should put you in
contact with these researchers. I think it is one of the most
valid studies to be attempted in this arena.

However I still wonder if such an instrumented approach will
find anything other than elevated EM emissions saturating the
bedroom environment. The problem here is that, yet again, the
superior technology/magic angle can and will be induced, ie-
these beings could be in and out of our frame of reference in
the blink of an eye and so our instruments may not record a
thing. Or the phenomena, whatever it is, may simply stay away
until the devices are out of the picture.

But Sue, thanks for responding. All the non-experiencers on this
list need to be reminded of the impact this phenom has on you
and others interacting with an aspect of it directly.

Here's to continued communications between all of us humans and
hope for more direct profound communications with our Grey
brethren.

SMiles