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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1997 > Oct > Oct 18

Re: Abduction Sat 4 Oct 1997

From: wlmss@peg.apc.org [Lawrie Williams]
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 03:05:26 +1000 (GMT+1000)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:42:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Abduction Sat 4 Oct 1997

> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:13:04 -0500
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Witness Anonymity

> Got a beef with Hopkins? take it up with him!

> Got a beef with Linda? Take it up with her!

Got a beef with Lawrie Williams?  Take it up with him!   :)

> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:31:00 -0500
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> Subject: Researching abduction cases

> Hello All,

Hi John Velez.   : )

> There has been a thread running about an abduction case that is
> being investigated by someone on the list. I didn't want to
> respond directly in the thread because I don't want to get into a
> situation where my comments are taken personally. Ergo, this new thread.

I'm the asshole you refer to in the continuation of this thread. (Appended.)

> Abduction research -must be- taken out of the hands of amateurs
> and para-professionals. Not so much for the sake of the research
> itself, there are many 'amateurs' that can do as competent if not
> better job than some pros, but for the sake of the well being of
> those individuals reporting.

Thank the gods! I have triggered a Loudon phenomenon over here!
Send help quick. No, come to think of it, take your time!

> The assumptions and beliefs of the person investigating a report
> of abduction should NEVER (under any circumstances) become a part
> of the picture.....

I agree. So I post a short file mentioning a conversation I had as
one abductee with another, and your assumptions and beliefs have
become a part of the picture.

> Yet in recent posts all I hear is assumption and personal beliefs

Assumptions departed from orthodox ufology or orthodox science?
Personal beliefs different from your own? When you meet another
person, especially an abductee, do you hide your personal beliefs
from them? When does a conversation become counselling?  5 minutes?
10 minutes? An hour? When money changes hands?

> wild interpretations and pure new age philosophy.

Be specific and I can respond. I am accountable. I cannot walk in
lock-step with orthodox science, nor can I append all my past
work to every file, but I can and do answer specific objections.

> Not a shred of anything objective/methodical/empirical or even a
> well thought out course of action for that matter.

Sweeping statements, again inadequately defined. Now there is an
objective, methodical and empirical reply if ever there was one.
How could you conclude that from such a small file?

> A dangerous game to play with someone elses mind and life.

You'll have them turning out with burning brands and pitchforks
soon. This is all over a simple conversation!

> You can't "practice" on -live ones- in this business.

What, the counselling business?

>  People can end up hurt or at best come away more confused

What about the situation that has you up in arms, where a FOAF
(friend-of-a-friend) neither hurt nor confused got my advice
and went away neither hurt nor confused but just less puzzled?
You are in a tail spin because of two critical buzz-words.

> than when they started their investigation. If you're not sure, or
> confident that you know what you're doing, or simply lack the proper
> experience you have -no business- doing it. Refer them to someone
> who is. An MHP at the very least. I do it automatically with anyone
> that contacts me.

Medical people have a long history of carving out things they find
without asking first. In the above situation there were no apparent
complicatons in the procedure so no need for medical attention.

> I'm working hard to try to steer abductees away from amateurs. It
> is my firmly held oppinion that unless and until abductees begin
> reporting their experiences to mainstream professionals such as
> family physicians, trusted counsellors, etc, we will never get
> the attention and the serious investigation that we need.

You need to reach into the hearts and minds of the public if
you want a paradigm shift like that. Set up for a medium budget
film production about abductions and I'll script it for you in
consultation with a variety of abductees. I know New York has
the resources to do it properly.

> Abductees will never recieve proper treatment or even objective
> handling at the hands of the amateurs. They can only get sold
> whatever 'explanation' the paraprofessional believes in
> him/herself, or they will get sold whatever bill of goods he or
> she is selling that week.

I have never hypnotized and never allowed myself to be hypnotized
and I warn people not to go to non-professionals to have their
palms read, let alone hypnotized. The only commodity I seek is
useful information. I have learnt to be thorough and balanced.

> This is serious business, peoples lives are quite literally at
> stake. It's not the "walk in the woods" adventure some percieve
> it to be, or worse yet as evidenced here on UpDates, an excersize
> in superimposing personal belief by those working with abduction
> experiencers.

I agree. The entities of the woods were known to have some similar
technologies, however. I spoke to a woman today who seems to have
once been subjected to a feeding session, but there was no craft
involved and she was not worried about it, just baffled. &tc.

> You wouldn't presume to do brain surgery, or treat someone who
> has a mental disorder unless you have the expertise and
> experience to do so. Working with someone who suspects that they
> are being abducted requires the same level of experience and
> expertise. What I see happening here is children playing doctor
> with real scalpels and live patients!

I think working with anyone who has flipped our or on the verge of
flipping out takes expertise and experience, irrespective.

John, most Abductees are not "sick". We are normal healthy people.
You are confusing sick clients who also happen to be abductees
which may or may not be related to their problem with ordinary
people who also happen to be abductees.

> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:42:17 -0500
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Researching Abduction Cases

> Let me ask you this Skye, don't you think that an experienced
> psychologist or counsellor would do a much better job of serving
> an abductees needs than say the kind of thing that is happening
> on another current thread?

Point is, I was all there was. That or the X-Files/ID4 genre.

> (Which will remain unnamed)

Lawrie Williams, the abductee who dared give an informed opinion
to another abductee.

> That kind of approach is something I find shameful and
> embarassing, not to mention the potential psychological harm to
> those poor unsuspecting souls that is being introduced by the
> "investigator" in the case.

I sense a cross cultural problem here. If it had been a
visitation by the god of ingrown toenails I wonder if such
intense emotions would have been stirred in you and several
other clearly very sincere and moral people.

In my experience most abductees handle what goes on with total
equanimity. Only troubled people come to light so you see a
disproportionate number of anxious cases.

There's a would-be-counsellor I know who graduates on this her fifth
year with all them bells and whistles of academia. Only recently I
spent a while talking to her suggesting she take up abduction
counselling since she was considering specialties. She does not realize
the extent of this phenomenon and has accepted only that a lot of
people are seeking counselling in relation to it. If you have an
explanatory package for such people then I'll be only too pleased to
forward you her email address. No catches, only trying to help.

> We -have been- 'left to ourselves' and the result so far is;
> *A dangerous set of beliefs about abduction that are rapidly
> becoming codified, and spreading like an infection from one to
> the other, (abduction dogma!)

Strange you should say that. When I framed my letter I had in mind
a very interesting comment made ojnly the other day:

>> From: clark@canby.mn.frontiercomm.net [Jerome Clark]
>> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:02:02 PDT
>> To: updates@globalserve.net
>> Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Solved Abduction cases?

>> .....content of abduction narratives much.  In other words, Bullard
>> validates formally what investigators have always insisted: that popular
>> debunking mythology aside, it's pretty hard to lead abductees.

It is not "leading" to tell one abductee what you think. And it would
take far more than that to mess with memories and expectations.

> *More interpretations of the phenomenon than Carter has liver pills,

I invite you to read:

[ Nick Pope "The Uninvited" Simon & Schyuster London 1997 ]

And then we can discuss things from a common perspective. You might
learn something. That is if Nick Pope is Credible, I don't know,
maybe there is a definitive Barbara Becker Paper out on him. If
so, don't quote from it whatever you do!

> *New age Philosophies based on benevolent space brothers and
> alien chanelers....

I have an entirely deserved reputation as a scourge of those who
express bizarre and derivative belief systems. I wish I had a dollar
for ever file I have written debunking the kind of stuff you quite
understandably abhor. *And* I fought the "alien hybrid" story until
recently. But regarding the "New Age" material, its not my fault that
most leading theorists have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Even as I write this, radio 2JJJ which caters to young people is
carrying one Al Beilik live from the Brisbane UFO Convention. He is
telling us about the Montauk Experiment and how he took two trips to
Mars via a secret matter transporter, where he explored a secret base
made by long vanished humans. We heard about the 1954 secret pact with
the aliens and how things went awry after that. The usual heady mix of
fact and fiction.

> *A "mutual re-inforcement" fest among believers to beat the band,
>  (very bad stuff as any counsellor will tell you)

As Union Rep, maybe you could show a little more respect for your

> *Mis-trust of those in the professional community (to whom we
>  should be turning) because they (Quote) "Won't believe us." -What
>  completely unsubstantiated bullsh-t that one is!-

Easily said if you live in the Gross Apple. That is how it is elsewhere.
Psychiatrists snigger and psychologists go "tsk tsk!". Not that it bothers
the rural folk in these parts. We just get on with things and we sure do
not need to hire someone to listen to us, we talk to one another in trust.

Hmmm, its late at night now, and news has just come thorugh of the
Harrier Jet on a "training exercise" that just came down in Ohio.
I wonder if my warning in the last file came too late. We hope the
pilot was not hurt.

> *Very little progress in terms of having gotten some firm answers
> to our questions..... <deletia about poor public awareness>

No wonder if you bite off people's heads based on minimal information.

> *Too many quacks, and amateurs! Assholes out to make a buck or a
>  name for themselves that don't much care how many heads get
>  screwed up along the way. That 'other thread' I mentioned being a
> 'classic' example!

John, I care very much. And this full moon, you care too much,
and have the wrong picture entirely.

> *Too many people have suffered in silence too long because they
>  fear ridicule or 'excommunication' from society.

It seems to have moved into a new phase for me too. I'm even get it
from those I thought were of my own kind. But it is full moon.

> The only way it is going to change is if WE change it.

Have you the insight and self-restraint to be such a spokesman?
But enough of this bickering type rot, I see John is about to break
into "The Abductees Anthem" sung to the tune of "The Marsellaise":

> .... What is happening to us today,
> Could be happening to them tomorrow.
> There's just too much at stake
> To play this any other way.

>       It's together,
>       All of us,
>       Abductees and the general public alike,
>       Or none of us at all.

> We are one race
> Living on one rock together,
> What happens to my neighbor
> Happens to me.
> I'm about involving as many people as I can,
> Abductee or no.

>       John Velez, Abductee Union Rep.

> "Together we stand, -divided- we fall!"

Says John as he swings a large club.  :)

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